Nontheist Friends-talk email list * How best to develop abolition-ally anew out of Quaker and now new Nontheist Friendly thinking ?
[NTF-talk] Evil
Scott MacLeod
9:23 PM (32 minutes ago)
to nontheist-friends@googlegroups.com
Dear Claire, Bill, Trevor, NtFs, All, here it is again from this email address anew ... thanks for helping to grow an abolition movement, Claire!
Am wondering if some of 'our' forebears on this NtFriends' agnostic Quakers' email list, say Quakers in the 1700s and 1800s (re 'The Quiet Rebels' by Margaret Hope Bacon's history), addressed the issue of the problem of evil (speaking from Friends' Quaker culture and language) in abolitionist movements - re the wrongful buying and selling of people, including of course innocents and kids and women and men as victims :((( - since NtFs may be a bit rebellious to new Construals of Quaker Worship even for example :(( ... and whether this abolition of slavery (resulting in the Anti-Slavery Act of 1833 in Britain, and even the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862 in the USA ) is developing with regards to the abolition of the illegal sex industry internationally, and among Quakers of many persuasions ... which abolition thereof may offer some grounds for hope even !
NtFriendly regards, and abolitionally yours, Scott
NtF blog label in daily blog - https://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/search/label/nontheist%20Friend
Quakers' too - https://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/search/label/Quakers (and see the Quaker label as well )
PS
Blogged a bit about NtFs and John Hick's book "The Problem of Evil" re the Theodicy idea ... and which some people in the field of religion and philosophy have studied -
https://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2019/04/aspen-populus-tremula-non-theist.html ... in April 2019, partly from communications on this list, for any NtF historians among us (and perhaps in other places too , such as - https://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2020/06/cosmos-sulphureus-poverty-action-wiki.html)
PPS
Appreciating these pictures of the freeing of slaves in Guyana in 1848 in some of these regards -
https://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2021/06/lesser-flamingo-phoeniconaias-minor.html
PPPS
Seeking to head up to Actual Harbin Hot Springs' and its warm pools (for a soaking meditation akin to Silent Meeting among Quakers and NtFs, in the spring) ... and for 2nd Actual-Virtual, Physical-Digital Harbin Hot Springs' ethnographic book, this one both 1) printed from text-in-the-sidebar of Google Street View even .. with machine translation ... and also 2) in a new book form (for all you Friendly bibliophiles) ... in something like #wuAsVR
~ http://tinyurl.com/p62rpcg ~ https://twitter.com/HarbinBook ~ http://bit.ly/HarbinBook ~
http://www.scottmacleod.com/ActualVirtualHarbinBook.html
In what ways is soaking in the Harbin Hot Springs warm pool similar to, and different from, the de facto inner releasing action I think occurs in Quaker Silent Meeting as a meditation even (and measurable as the relaxation response, but in new ways even - re warm water ? ... and can we soak in our home bathtubs while visiting realistic virtual Harbin Hot Springs, like sitting in Quaker NtF Silent Meeting even ... as researchers even in academic studies? ... and see too (Interesting Harvard medical school Smartphones, Wearables and Health conference on 11/5/21 which abstract was accepted, and here's the first draft of the 1 slide presentation - http://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2021/10/uluru.html?m=0 - which is Harbin and brainwave headset research focused:) )
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--
- Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
- World University and School
- http://worlduniversityandschool.org
- 415 480 4577
- http://scottmacleod.com
- CC World University and School - like CC Wikipedia with best STEM-centric CC OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization.
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- Scott GK MacLeod
Founder, President, CEO & Professor
World Univ & Sch (WUaS) - PO Box 442, Canyon, CA 94516
1) non-profit World University and School - http://worlduniversityandschool.org
2) for profit general stock company WUaS Corporation in CA - http://worlduniversityandschool.org/AcademicPress.html
(o) 415 480 4577 - sgkmacleod@worlduniversiryandschool.org
(m) 412 478 0116 - sgkmacleod@gmail.com
World Univ & Sch Innovation Research - scottmacleod.com
- CC World University and School - like CC Wikipedia with best STEM-centric CC OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization.
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Claire Cafaro Unsubscribe |
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to nontheist-friends@googlegroups.com |
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Dear NTFriends
Recent events have me struggling to understand the problem of evil.
Parents who give their disturbed child a gun as an “early Christmas present”, a congressman who sends his constituents a Christmas card featuring guns….. is this not the personification of evil?
Theist Friends pride themselves on acknowledging “that of God in everyone” and this seems to lead to an avoidance of the whole idea of the existence of evil.
I remember M. Scott Peck’s book People of the Lie, wherein he addresses this topic in depth.
I wonder whether NTFriends have thoughts they are willing to share?
claire
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Claire, Bob, NtFs, All,
Am wondering if some of 'our' forebears on this NtFriends' agnostic Quakers' email list, say Quakers in the 1700s and 1800s (re 'The Quiet Rebels' by Margaret Hope Bacon's history), addressed the issue of the problem of evil (speaking from Friends' Quaker culture and language) in abolitionist movements - re the wrongful buying and selling of people, including of course innocents and kids and women and men as victims :((( - since NtFs may be a bit rebellious to new Construals of Quaker Worship even for example :(( ... and whether this abolition of slavery (resulting in the Anti-Slavery Act of 1833 in Britain, and even the Emancipation Proclamation in 1962 in the USA ) is developing with regards to the abolition of the illegal sex industry internationally, and among Quakers of many persuasions ... which abolition thereof may offer some grounds for hope even !
NtFriendly regards, and abolitionally yours, Scott
PS
Blogged a bit about NtFs and John Hick's book "The Problem of Evil" re the Theodicy idea ... and which some people in the field of religion and philosophy have studied -
PPS
Appreciating these pictures of the freeing of slaves in Guyana in 1848 in some of these regards -
PPPS
Seeking to head up to Actual Harbin Hot Springs' and its warm pools (for a soaking meditation akin to Silent Meeting among Quakers and NtFs, in the spring) ... and for 2nd Actual-Virtual, Physical-Digital Harbin Hot Springs' ethnographic book, this one both 1) printed from text-in-the-sidebar of Google Street View even .. with machine translation ... and also 2) in a new book form (for all you Friendly bibliophiles) ... in something like #wuAsVR
In what ways is soaking in the Harbin Hot Springs warm pool similar to, and different from, the de facto inner releasing action I think occurs in Quaker Silent Meeting as a meditation even (and measurable as the relaxation response, but in new ways even - re warm water ? ... and can we soak in our home bathtubs while visiting realistic virtual Harbin Hot Springs, like sitting in Quaker NtF Silent Meeting even ... as researchers even in academic studies? ... and see too
(Interesting Harvard medical school Smartphones, Wearables and Health conference on 11/5/21 which abstract was accepted, and here's the first draft of the 1 slide presentation - http://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2021/10/uluru.html?m=0 - which is Harbin and brainwave headset research focused:) )
--
--
- Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
- World University and School
- 415 480 4577
- CC World University and School - like CC Wikipedia with best STEM-centric CC OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization.
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An interesting question.
’The problem of evil’ is usually presented as a problem for (believing in) an all-seeing, omnipotent, loving ‘God’.
If you have no such belief then, in that sense, there is no ‘problem of evil’.
However, most of us feel that evil is a problem.
At the NFN(UK) conference at Woodbrooke in 2019 (our last there for the time being!), Marisa Johnson of FWCC-EMES explained a word game she has devised to illustrate how certain (for example, biblical) words can be re-phrased in ways which are associated with quite different emotions.
(
https://nontheist-quakers.org.uk/2019/05/10/report-on-2019-nfn-conference/).
One example was how we might replace (a biblical translation) ‘Evil’ with ‘Cause of Harm’. We then see how we can only deal with both ‘evils’ such as natural disasters and ‘evils’ occasioned by human action or inaction, in a pragmatic fashion as they arise. We can plan for ‘prevention’, in both cases, where this is possible and where it is not we can only ‘mitigate’ or deal with it (the harm caused) on a case by case basis. Which seems quite Quakerly I think.
As for the all-seeing, omnipotent, loving ‘God’ (or ‘whatever you call it’), we can only recognise him, her or it according to our own experience, inclination or choice.
Trevor Bending (
trevor@humber.co.uk) (Nontheist Friends Network, and Marple, East Cheshire AM UK).
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trevorbending via googlegroups.com |
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This from Mark Russ is an interesting theist account - can it be embraced by nontheists too?
https://jollyquaker.com/2017/05/26/finding-a-good-way-to-talk-about-evil/ (thanks to Scott for bringing this to my attention).
On Tuesday, December 7, 2021 at 10:59:13 PM UTC trevorbending wrote:
An interesting question.
’The problem of evil’ is usually presented as a problem for (believing in) an all-seeing, omnipotent, loving ‘God’.
If you have no such belief then, in that sense, there is no ‘problem of evil’.
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Was there a message from Scott? I thought I saw something in my Spam folder and thought I’d moved it to my Primary mail, but I don’t see it there.
If Scott sent a message, could someone forward it to me please?
Thanks to those who have written in response to my concern, very helpful.
I think I knew, but had forgotten that philosophers think of “the problem of evil” in theological terms rather than moral or ethical terms.
And then there are the legal considerations about whether the offender could discern right from wrong.
Thanks, claire
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to nontheist-friends@googlegroups.com |
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Dear Claire, Bill, Trevor, NtFs, All, here it is again from this email address anew ... thanks for helping to grow an abolition movement, Claire!
Am wondering if some of 'our' forebears on this NtFriends' agnostic Quakers' email list, say Quakers in the 1700s and 1800s (re 'The Quiet Rebels' by Margaret Hope Bacon's history), addressed the issue of the problem of evil (speaking from Friends' Quaker culture and language) in abolitionist movements - re the wrongful buying and selling of people, including of course innocents and kids and women and men as victims :((( - since NtFs may be a bit rebellious to new Construals of Quaker Worship even for example :(( ... and whether this abolition of slavery (resulting in the Anti-Slavery Act of 1833 in Britain, and even the Emancipation Proclamation in 1862 in the USA ) is developing with regards to the abolition of the illegal sex industry internationally, and among Quakers of many persuasions ... which abolition thereof may offer some grounds for hope even !
NtFriendly regards, and abolitionally yours, Scott
PS
Blogged a bit about NtFs and John Hick's book "The Problem of Evil" re the Theodicy idea ... and which some people in the field of religion and philosophy have studied -
PPS
Appreciating these pictures of the freeing of slaves in Guyana in 1848 in some of these regards -
PPPS
Seeking to head up to Actual Harbin Hot Springs' and its warm pools (for a soaking meditation akin to Silent Meeting among Quakers and NtFs, in the spring) ... and for 2nd Actual-Virtual, Physical-Digital Harbin Hot Springs' ethnographic book, this one both 1) printed from text-in-the-sidebar of Google Street View even .. with machine translation ... and also 2) in a new book form (for all you Friendly bibliophiles) ... in something like #wuAsVR
In what ways is soaking in the Harbin Hot Springs warm pool similar to, and different from, the de facto inner releasing action I think occurs in Quaker Silent Meeting as a meditation even (and measurable as the relaxation response, but in new ways even - re warm water ? ... and can we soak in our home bathtubs while visiting realistic virtual Harbin Hot Springs, like sitting in Quaker NtF Silent Meeting even ... as researchers even in academic studies? ... and see too
(Interesting Harvard medical school Smartphones, Wearables and Health conference on 11/5/21 which abstract was accepted, and here's the first draft of the 1 slide presentation - http://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2021/10/uluru.html?m=0 - which is Harbin and brainwave headset research focused:) )
--
- Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
- World University and School
- 415 480 4577
- CC World University and School - like CC Wikipedia with best STEM-centric CC OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization.
--
- Scott GK MacLeod
Founder, President, CEO & Professor
World Univ & Sch (WUaS) - PO Box 442, Canyon, CA 94516
- CC World University and School - like CC Wikipedia with best STEM-centric CC OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization.
*
'David Boulton' via Nontheist Friends (Quakers)
7:18 AM (3 hours ago)
to Claire, nontheist-friends
It's worth mentioning a comprehensive study of Quaker attitudes to evil, "Good and Evil: Quaker Perspectives", edited by Jackie Leach Scully and Pink Dandelion and published by Ashgate in 2007. I don't know if it is still available. (I declare an interest: it includes my contribution, "Looking Within: A Nontheist Perspective").
David Boulton
PS: I don't quarrel with the view that we all have 'that of God' in us, so long as we recognise that we also have 'that of the devil', which Quakers are inclined to ignore.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/nontheist-friends/00e601d7ec46%24e00d1aa0%24a0274fe0%24%40btinternet.com.
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WUaS - World University and School
9:01 AM (1 hour ago)
to anitabower48, James, Tim, nontheist-friends, David
Appreciating the un-programmed NT Friendly Quaker aspects in these Nontheist Friends' emailings
Am appreciative, too, of the possible Nt Friendly use of the word 'bad' regarding the evil word, and regarding Nontheist Friendly Quaker processes.
Am reminded of the phrase "Money is the root of all evil," and wonder how Nontheist Friends & Quakers here might think of this? As an example of developing NtF thinking, how could NtFriends explore this topic anew, differently from say how Quakers have explored this? Am also appreciative of the information technology revolution in helping to further Nontheist Friends' sharings (via the Google platform +) - and even regarding new free money, such as Stanford Mine Pi, which you can get and 'mine' daily ... https://minepi.com/sgkmac (and I currently have about 2,560 Pi coins, for example), but which isn't yet connected on smartphones that I know of with, say, Google Pay, or similar. Please avail yourself of this free money and share it with friends too. If money were available freely and universally, say with Universal Basic Income experiments to end poverty, and via distributing a single cryptocurrency to all 7.9 billion people on the planet, to end poverty, how would Nontheist Friends ideas of what is evil, or not, change, and say compared with Quaker understandings over the past 350 years in the aggregate?
NtFriendly greetings, and abolitionally yours, Scott
Again, have blogged about some of this here to extend the Nontheist Friends' conversation -
https://scott-macleod.blogspot.com/2021/12/eastern-cottonwood.html -
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Trevor, David, Claire, Nontheist Friends,
I looked up here in the Tri-Colleges' Digital Collections your book, David, and also Jackie Leach Scully -
"Good and Evil: Quaker Perspectives", edited by Jackie Leach Scully and Pink Dandelion and published by Ashgate in 2007
Reach out to them somehow, and even to see if they have it, or would like to buy it for their collection ? What online Friends' digital libraries exist in the British Isles? Does one have to be somehow a member to access what Quaker books Woodbrooke, for example, might have online?
the Nontheist Friends' wiki school -
and the
Quakers' wiki school for open teaching and leanring -
Great online and accessible Quaker libraries, and NtF too, could be a great way to address and research about Friends' approaches to the questions of evil and good (a dualism, I'm not drawn to, in my skepticism of such dualisms philosophically in general, and even regarding my feminist theology Reed College thesis on Rosemary Ruether's "Sexism and God-Talk" where women historically have been associated negatively with evil historically in some cultures and religious "constructions" )
Happy further searching on "Good and Evil" in the Friends' Tri-Colleges' library and other Friendly and other libraries online.
And potentially with time, World Univ & Sch may be able to both collaborate with libraries and create our own online related Friendly collections. Thoughts, suggestions, questions, ideas about this too?
NtF cheers, Scott
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Hi Bill, Claire, Nontheist Friends,
I think a free cryptocurrency (at this point) like Stanford Mine Pi (which I don't think is a scam at all) could help Meetings in the British Isles, the USA and elsewhere in the world, where I think poverty, a great evil, may be a significant issue, especially in British Isles (having lived their for 2 full years, albeit a long time ago). I also think that free money, like Stanford Mine Pi, in Quaker Meetings, could offset some Meetings seeking to make money in other ways (and even tragically illegally ... potentially by wrongfully buying and selling people, in the illegal sex trade internationally and tragically - as great evil like slavery as I see this too) So Stanford Mine Pi when one can withdraw it and turn it into fiat currency will potentially be a real boon to Quakers and Nontheist Friends everywhere - so this new form of money could become, in a turn around culturally, a non-evil, so a great good even.
Claire, this is how cryptocurrencies came into this thread's conversation -
"Am reminded of the phrase "Money is the root of all evil," and wonder how Nontheist Friends & Quakers here might think of this? As an example of developing NtF thinking, how could NtFriends explore this topic anew, differently from say how Quakers have explored this? Am also appreciative of the information technology revolution in helping to further Nontheist Friends' sharings (via the Google platform +) - and even regarding new free money, such as Stanford Mine Pi, which you can get and 'mine' daily ...
https://minepi.com/sgkmac (and I currently have about 2,560 Pi coins, for example), but which isn't yet connected on smartphones that I know of with, say, Google Pay, or similar. Please avail yourself of this free money and share it with friends too. If money were available freely and universally, say with Universal Basic Income experiments to end poverty, and via distributing a single cryptocurrency to all 7.9 billion people on the planet, to end poverty, how would Nontheist Friends ideas of what is evil, or not, change, and say compared with Quaker understandings over the past 350 years in the aggregate?"
Travis, and Nontheist Friends, to begin to earn free money daily through Stanford Mine Pi, by clicking 2 mining buttons every 24, re Pi's algorithms, one needs a code like the
https://minepi.com/BlockChain2 (but where Stanford Mine Pi has its own blockchain distributed ledger built in) code you shared, or
https://minepi.com/sgkmac .
.. and it's easy from there.
Brainstorming-wise, and as you may have been reading in the CC-4 OCW.MIT.EDU-centric wiki World Univ & Sch Monthly Business Meeting Minutes, WUaS is exploring making it available to all 7,9 billion people on the planet, each a Wikidata Pin #, and in all ~200 countries, backed by ~200 central banks, and for speakers of all 7,139 living languages, and to end poverty via UBI Experiments ... and even for the WUaS Corporation, a wing of WUaS, to begin to list this on the new Silicon Valley Long-Term Stock Exchange (where countries, and mutual funds and others would eventually buy into even the WUaS Corporation). The SEC and the Fed Reserve and the European Central Bank and the African Central Bank etc would code for it further, to protect end users, so that it wasn't a scam ... I can share a little Youtube video about Stanford Mine Pi, which says that Pi will not be free after Stage 3, and that it's free now, if you're interested. But whatever happens next, Stanford Mine Pi is free now, and by mining it every 24 hours. If poorer people in any Quaker Meetings you might as NtFs be associated with have the smartphone that can run the Stanford Mine Pi App, please invite them with your new Mine Pi code, or one of the codes above - for free money, potentially a very great good, if it can eventually help people pay the rent, buy food, or give a present to a family member. It's free to NtFs now ... and potentially a non-evil, rather a tremendous boon.
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Cryptocurrency, of which Bitcoin is the first example. I've heightened the word I was responding to below in red. (But it may have appeared earlier.)
I think that you have to be very careful before you bring cryptocurrency into this discussion. Lots of unintended consequences are possible.
Bill
I'm so mixed up...how did bitcoins get into this conversation?
claire
Argh! Cryptocurrency!
I always thought Bitcoin was a scam, and it is.
Bill
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Thanks ... am glad that Stanford Mine Pi is available now to mine daily and to get free money with - a great boon, and a non-evil, albeit you can't buy anything with it. NtFs enjoy it !
Am being quite careful by Minuting something about each month at WUaS - eg
Hester Peirce is an SEC commissioner in the USA, who's on the WUAS Monthly Business Meeting emailings -
https://twitter.com/hesterpeirce - and she's Tweeting a lot about how the SEC will regulate it ... re helping consumers to be careful ..
Let's end poverty among Friends, NtFriends and Quakers and potentially with the boon of legitimate and safe cryptocurrency (hopefully one will be adopted by most countries' central banks, and I think it could be Stanford Mine Pi ) ... let's end the evil of poverty worldwide among 7,9 billion people on the planet and even via You at WUAS -
https://wiki.worlduniversityandschool.org/wiki/You_at_World_University - each a Wikidata Pin # ... and thanks too to the Information Technology revolution!
Am appreciating your 'caveat emptor' - buyer beware - thinking, Bill ... and I also think accumulating Stanford Mine Pi for free, and by mining it daily is quite risk free, and will be very advantageous to NtFs and Quakers in the future too, depending on how much one accumulates in part.
NtF cheers, Scott
PS
Here's an explanation of Stanford Mine Pi withdrawals -
Pi Network - How To Withdraw Pi Coin - How To Exchange Pi Coin
--
--
- Scott MacLeod - Founder & President
- World University and School
- 415 480 4577
- CC World University and School - like CC Wikipedia with best STEM-centric CC OpenCourseWare - incorporated as a nonprofit university and school in California, and is a U.S. 501 (c) (3) tax-exempt educational organization.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populus_deltoides
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Populus_deltoides
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottonwood
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